0:01Diana Hayes: Hello, welcome to Even a Dog has ADHD because apples don't fall far from trees and there is never just one. I am utterly thrilled to have Natalie Hay here today, the author of The Parent Carer. Natalie, welcome. Shall we dive in with what motivated you to write this book? And then I'm sure we'll go down all sorts of lovely rabbit holes. Natalie Hay: you with me?
0:30Natalie Hay: So there's so many things that motivated me to write it. That's why I almost felt like I couldn't not write it because I have quite lot of experience in different areas. And the main reason is because it's the book that I wish had been available when I first became a parent carer eight years ago. And it felt like such an overwhelming place to be. It felt like I had so many doors shut in my face and yet so many hoops I had to jump through in order to get places. And after... Diana Hayes: Thank
0:59Natalie Hay: eight years ago, I learnt so much and I wanted to help other people so that they would have be signposted more easily and create something that was kind of like included so many different things that you could just go to and find a chapter and find what you needed quickly and easily because I'm also aware because I was a parent caring myself how little time you have, don't want waffle, you want the really important facts that you need and you want signposting so my chapters have like help boxes. Diana Hayes: Hmm.
1:29Natalie Hay: to signpost you on if you want more information. Diana Hayes: It's an awesome book. Honestly, I've been dipping in and I said, just before we press record, I said, I wish that I'd been given this book when I had the private diagnosis because the report I was given for me and my child felt quite challenging to go through. This was all before AI and... I was in the midst of a very traumatic breakdown and I don't think people fully understand you can read stuff and not process it when you are in that state of mind, particularly when you are advocating for your child. It's all unknown territory. Preparation for birth, people try to support that, but preparation for exploration that your child may be neurodivergent and need additional support. You can find stuff, certain groups online. It's such a maze of what you may or may not find. And the help that's given to you is so patchwork-y based on your diagnosing physician. It's such a patchwork. I had one person share their report with me and asked me to read it and help process it with them. And at the end of the report, the person, this was a professional, well-respected organization, gave them four links from magazines, two of which were broken links for follow-on care. So it's not standard and it's almost like this should be a standard that you're given because it's something exactly what you've been, what you said about being able to dip in and out and find what you want. I hardly ever read a whole book cover to cover, hardly ever. It takes time and I go and come back. So this is a brilliant reference material.
3:46Natalie Hay: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that made me so happy to hear when you said it was like a Bible for parents. That made me so, so happy. Do you know what I had? I had a really similar experience to you in terms of a charity's let me down, who's meant to give me advice on two occasions. My local, I'm going to have to say it was Sendas, which has got a really good reputation, but they can be very patchy. I think it's important because Diana Hayes: absolutely brilliant. Diana Hayes: Yeah. Natalie Hay: online, some people rave about their local sendias and some of them are amazing. If you have a really good caseworker who knows their stuff, it can be great. But I had one, I had two occasions where they didn't help me. First of all, for disability living allowance, they helped me fill out the form and it failed. And then they didn't tell me in time that I could reapply. And I had to go to court to do disability living allowance for my child. going to court was actually great because then I now know exactly what needs to be done and I filled the format myself and I write about that in my book. And on a second occasion, someone who was quite high up there told me that I wouldn't get a parent carers respite break. I wouldn't get funding for it. And I'd done my research and I was like, no, I think I can get it. And within a couple of weeks later, I did get it with the local authority. And, you know, often the peace people are linked to local authorities or they maybe completely unintentionally don't mean to give you the wrong advice, but it can stop you from getting valuable help. And that three hours a week when my child was housebound. was so important to me and I'm so glad I pushed through. Another charity was saying, I think you should be getting parent carers needs assessment and they sent it for me to the local authority. It got ignored. I rung up, I followed up, I managed to get a phone call with someone and they managed to it in place. But I think anyone that's been doing this a long time knows, unfortunately, you often have to fight for things quite often. And you need to be careful where you take your advice from. So I'm totally independent. I've worked in schools. I've worked, I've gone against local authorities in court personally and for the whole country, know, 150,000 children as a campaigner. So I am not linked to anything. I've worked with charities who had their hands tied behind their back because they've literally said, we can't take, we can't support you to take this to court. And I've said, well,
6:13Natalie Hay: I know parent carers who are struggling at home using, they can't get to a food bank, they're in poverty. We can't just wait for the DFE to, you know, and or I'm taking this to court. And because of that, I can say what I want. I'm not regulated. So I literally, I work for my privately for the parent, care, care, carers and parents and parent carers and the children. And that's what I care about, you know? So that's what brings makes me a bit different. I'm regulated by the BDA in terms of what I say about dyslexia, but other than that I'm just helping, one the help really, help everybody.
6:51Diana Hayes: There's so much that is in what you've just shared. So at the time of recording this, my child is 15. I only recently applied because I didn't know what was on offer. I don't have any HCP for my child. Like even within the parent community, fight for it, fight for it. My child is... able to mask enough in school and despite not doing full school days, they are not struggling academically. And I do not have the bandwidth for the fight. That really makes me feel uber anxious. And I cannot be the only parent carer alone in feeling like I can't even wrap my head around the word court and fight. And I think it's also important to say that you've self-represented, didn't you? Because you can't afford legal representation.
7:55Natalie Hay: Yeah, I couldn't afford it. And I looked into it and it was 250 pounds for initial consultation. And then someone I spoke to in my area who got eotis for their child, which is education other than at school, which means that the local authority pay for the medical home tuition at home or whatever alternative provision that they fund it. And the person that I knew in the area had got it for their child who was autistic had paid 16,000 pounds. and I just didn't have that money. So I decided I'd try and do it myself and had a really lovely charity called Grace Advocacy. no, sorry, they helped with DLA. They didn't help me with EHCP. I used, I looked at Heidi Maver's online workshop. And she kind of really helped empower me to think I can do this on my own. And I think it's really important to know that you can do on your own. But having said that, when you just said you don't want to fight, I've been there and I couldn't fight everything and they can't do it all at once. I think you have to pick one thing at a time. And one of the things I do as part of my work is I help parents to get things put in place without any HCP. Okay, because it's perfect with a diagnostic report, you can get so much put in place with the right wording and the right conversations with SENCOs and a huge part of my work for my company, Open Doors Education is supporting parents to send letters and have conversations with SENCOs because they often, I don't know if you've done this Diana, would just send the reports to the school and then think that then that diagnostic report will get looked at and... But it won't because it's a broken system and they've got no time to read it.
9:43Diana Hayes: I that's really important. So again, I'm just highlighting my child was diagnosed late in primary school and late for them, ADHD and autistic. The autism and supporting them is the biggest challenge. And we had an incredible prescribing nurse through CAMHS. She was amazing in terms of signposting and asking. for things that they couldn't do. But she was brilliant in saying, well, you need to ask the year team for this and the SENCO for this. So SENCO is Special Educational Needs Team for people who may or may not be aware. I think primary and secondary schools in UK have those reps. it might, it looks so different in every school. I don't think there's even a standard. but lots of schools have teams now, special dedicated teams. we had the prescribing nurse said, you need to advocate for a communications team assessment. And I was repeatedly told that it's really tough, it's really hard. And again, because my child is not performing really badly, not the best, but not dire, that I was very unlikely to get anything. And that's the narrative, I think, a lot of parents hear. We worked, somebody came into school, did the assessment, they sent the report, keyed, you know, you have to download the key, it's all very secure. And I opened it up and just looking at the report, I was like, my goodness. so I took the report and I put it in my personal AI and I said, give me a summary of it. And it was so helpful. And I've trained this particular AI and at the end of it, the AI said, my thoughts are you should follow up on this, this and this from the AI on the AI. And I had a meeting in school. That report had been out for a couple of weeks.
11:47Natalie Hay: Wait, I did. Natalie Hay: Brilliant. Diana Hayes: I hadn't had any feedback from school. I was following up from things that had been missed and forgotten. Like it's not bad intention, but they had missed stuff and something had escalated again. And it was around communication. So we had this big meeting and when my child left, I'm like, okay, let's look at this report. What have you got from this? And it was so much so, like it was a robust conversation about what are we going to do? But it wasn't, and they were there gonna do stuff, but it been with them for nearly a month. It's a massive state school, probably about half in the class, nevermind the year, are kids with additional needs that need support and accommodations. So it's huge. So as a parent, like we've got that responsibility for advocacy and we have to learn it. We're not edu... Well, I'm not an educator. I wasn't trained. I'm not a clinical psychologist and I find it really challenging that you're the expert in your child and what they want.
13:27Natalie Hay: I know it's kind of interesting what you're saying there. It's like a paradox because you're meant to advocate, but then at the same time, you're never allowed in the school and it's very much shut doors. So you have no idea what it really goes on in there because I am a teacher, qualified teacher, qualified in 2004. worked as a teaching assistant for that in 2003 to make sure I wanted to go into this and have two children who are now teenagers. I have a really good understanding of the teaching system from both the parent and the teacher side. So I really use that to help parents understand what it's like in schools and it is a bit crazy and Senco's, they don't have as much training as some people might think. they have a little, they have like do an MA in inclusive education and do they do extra training. But unfortunately, when the cuts, budget cuts came through. in last 10 years, there hasn't been the same professional development for teachers across the board. And they just don't have the same understanding. you know, it's neuroscience is very early science and things like ADHD were only, you know, created in 1987. So it's still, we still lot to learn. And sometimes, unfortunately, I hate to say this, know teachers are working really hard, but schools just aren't able to support children in the way they want to. And they know that, but they just haven't got the staff and they haven't got the manpower, haven't got the resources, the expertise, but fingers crossed there'll be more you know training happening and
15:04Natalie Hay: things will improve but what I do is I speak to my clients and I say right this is what it's like in school let's think realistically what do you think your child would do best with so even if your diagnostic report for example says that it would be really helpful if they have a separate room for their exams a quiet room if you're then going to tell me that your child does not want that because they're a teenager they're 14 they're embarrassed and they're going to hate that and that's going to distract them make them feel anxious there's no point in doing that. Even if the school like, yeah, we can do that, that's fine. Little things like, what about ask the child, when do you concentrate best? So one of my students, had this conversation with him and he said to me, I said, are you better at the front where you've got people behind you, but there's no one ahead of you? Or do you feel like you can feel people behind you or you better at the back?
15:35Diana Hayes: Yep. Natalie Hay: with no one behind you in the corner and you can see everything or is that distracting seeing everything? Little things like that. And he said he chose the back. So he had that for his exams. So little things like that can make a difference, but schools won't and teachers won't always have that understanding and that empathy or the time to think about these questions. So, you know, it's little things like that that you can ask for or some students prompting is really helpful. Others, it's getting up and having a break. some, it might be having a break by just resting their head down for a second. You know, there's different little things you can do, which is still reasonable adjustments and make can make a big difference. And then extra time typing word processors. Some schools will avoid that because they haven't got the resources or. because they're afraid like that they don't want to let you down. So it might be just eat. And if your child is quick at writing, good at writing, they might just say, no, there's no problem there. Just keep them handwriting. But when you're typing, there's other reasons why it's useful. If you have dyslexia or ADHD, there's many reasons. It's not just handwriting. It's the fact that you can, you'll be doing something with your hands. It's the fact that if you make an error, you can quickly delete it. And if you, especially if you're someone that's perfectionist, and don't want to cross things out. So I guess I have students like that. So it's just and also with with dyslexia, if you find it difficult, if you have issues with orthographic representation, like the shape of the grapheme, like the shape of a C or an A, you haven't got to form that when you're writing. You can just look for it on the keypad instead. So you take out one process. And then also if you're having issues with executive dysfunction, you can copy and paste things. So with my students, I've got amazing ideas, a lot of ADHD and dyslexia students, and they want to get straight in and the, know, mind map it all. And then they go, what about the introduction? I'm like, nope, just get in with your best paragraph, write it, do it. And then later we'll add an instruction at the end, which you can much more easily do on a computer, or you can do an asterisk.
18:11Natalie Hay: and the examiner has to look at the asterisks and put it at the end. But these little things aren't taught at the moment in schools. This is the kind of thing which I'm teaching through my tutoring that I think, you know, so there are these little things, what things that parents can do and tutors can do at home and that can help the child and the school is at limitations in what they can do with so many students. Diana Hayes: So there are a couple of things that would be lovely to tease out. First of all, let's talk about your business, what it is and how you help people, because you've sprinkled that in. Let's talk about that a bit. Tell us more.
18:49Natalie Hay: So I have a company called Open Doors Education, which I started as a company a year ago, but I've been working as a tutor for the past five years. And I kind of fell into it because I was happy working schools and then I was going to be an education psychologist. And my son... I was a parent carer for, became very ill with a chronic illness. I had to give up work, give up study and I had to... take care of him full time and go on to benefits the first time in my life. And obviously the lockdowns happened and I tutored my children and it got me thinking about tutoring and some people kind of persuaded me to tutor their children just after lockdown actually. And I tried it and I absolutely loved it. And I realized because I've had so much experience in schools, because I worked in supply, in loads, I've been in like hundreds. you know, like 250 schools in southwest London. And they're all quite similar in lots of ways. I understand the curriculum because I've taught for so long. I've seen all the changes. So I know exactly what's happening in the classroom. So I don't just present what they get in the classroom. I make sure I enhance what the child's getting and make sure that I give them what they're not getting, like the feedback. A lot of it's feedback. One to one feedback, praise. constructive, asking them what they think, empowering them to know themselves and improve their work. That's a lot of what I do. So that's where it from. And then also I trained to be dyslexia specialists because one in five people are dyslexic.
20:33Natalie Hay: That's a lot of people. again, we haven't got the support in schools at the moment to really focus on dyslexia. I also train teachers in school about dyslexia. recent training I did, encouraged the Senco to put phonology maths up in all the classrooms so that... teachers and children have a reference for helping them decode for spelling and reading. And yeah, I love what I do. I love I love making a difference. I love seeing people. My favourite thing is seeing my students jump grades and GCSEs. You know, not when they've been struggling. There's lovely one of I just actually was looking today at one of the messages I had. from a past student. And she said I could mention her. Her name is Macy and she got a U in her mock and a U is unrecognized. Like no, it just means you don't get a grade at all. And she was just finding out about ADHD and she just got a diagnosis in the January before her GCSEs and had just gone on some medication and she... was predicted a two or three and I worked with her over eight weeks and she wrote, hi, it's Macy, thank you for the tutoring sessions. They were very helpful. I did so much better than I was predicted. I was predicted a two or three and I got a six. So that just shows. And the main reason she got that, excuse me, is because...
22:03Diana Hayes: Thanks. Natalie Hay: She wasn't typing or anything. It wasn't the extra time. It was a confidence in her abilities. It was that one-to-one support with her. Sorry. And just basically her not thinking that she was good enough and not realizing that and also finding out what her passions were. She's going on now to study forensic psychology. So she did a creator writing all about this murder mystery and it was wonderful.
22:38Diana Hayes: That's so interesting that you say that. Is it English? it your subject English? yes, I thought, yeah. Natalie Hay: Yeah. So I have tutors, sorry, that also teach maths and science as well in the company, but it's majority of my tutors are English and that's my specialism. Diana Hayes: So maths and science and English tutoring. And it's really interesting what you're saying about those maybe six months before and the difference that made. I got a U in maths. I'm so ancient, it was before GCSEs. And I was then moved schools to a little Quaker school. Natalie Hay: Yeah.
23:22Diana Hayes: And I was there with all of the other retakers. It was tiny class and he was amazing. Mr. Godwin, he got like fun competitive stuff going in the group. It was fun. I remember sitting right at the front and I got a B in a year. Natalie Hay: Wow. Diana Hayes: How do you go from you to be? So it's just about the right support, the right environment. And, you know, thinking in our own family, just like with accessing tutoring, they want to do like particularly, I think it's English. They absolutely love. They're not, it's not, you know, it's one of their stronger subjects, but they want additional. tutoring on it because they know they've got more inside them to do better. So they're doing well and they want to go for excellence. And I've been sort of going, what about this really? The science is just not like, yeah, whatever. We'll maybe look at that, like no interest, but wants to excel in something they're already strong at, which I find really interesting. the idea of bringing up all of our weak areas, but what about the areas where we're strong and we could be even stronger?
24:47Natalie Hay: Exactly and I think a lot of my students it's like they know they've got potential and the parents know they've got potential and they just it's just not happening and they don't know quite why and a lot of what I do is formula like this is how it works this is what they want from you let's look at the marking schemes you need to be able to label all these things you need to analyze let me watch you analyzing and then picking out when they do it really well. And also not being afraid to make mistakes myself and showing them my thought process myself so they can see how I analyse and like speaking aloud. In schools, you can't really make mistakes as a teacher. So you're right. And this is what happens through years and years. Children sit in a classroom and they see a teacher writing perfectly on the board. There's a lot of pressure on them and they can't. you know, even get a full stop in the wrong place or whatever. Whereas if they do and the children point it out and the teacher can say, yeah, I missed that. Then the child feels, it's okay. But that's not really the culture of education system. So a lot of the time I'm very careful not to reprimand students if they make mistakes because they're so sick of being told, why didn't you do this? Why didn't you put a full stop? And it's the way we speak to our students. We don't have to say that. We can say I said, right, editing time. OK, let's have a look. Let's check. All right. Scanning brain on now. Scanning hat. Scan, scan, scan. Oh, missed a full stop. What else do you miss? Come on. You know, it just it changes. And what you just said about being fun is so important. I put so much effort into my work and I all my tutors, I make sure they've got the right mentality and the right fun. You have to get that balance with being disciplined. So you let your student go off on a tangent too long unless you can bring it into the work and at the same time, make it fun and engaging.
26:43Natalie Hay: because that's how you learn, isn't it? You're having fun and you're playful, games. Diana Hayes: Yeah. I don't think, I know people say that adults don't play and don't do it, but that just can't be true. Because if you look at all the comedy AI stuff that was posted once people figured out they could make images in chat GPT and stuff, people started playing with a new toy and you learn and then you go, can it, and through that Natalie Hay: Yeah, that's so true.
27:13Diana Hayes: play, go, I wonder if it could do that. I wonder if it could do that. And that kind of experimentation through play. Now, the other thing that we've sort of skimmed over very briefly is your child and the chronic illness story, which was prior to neurodivergent exploration, wasn't it? Do you want to talk a bit more about that? Natalie Hay: Yes.
27:41Natalie Hay: Yeah, sure. this is something another, I have a whole chapter on chronic illness. I have a chapter on ADHD, a chapter on autistic appreciation, chapter on dyslexia, and a chapter on chronic illness, because it is a minority of parent carers that have a child with a chronic illness. And because of that, there's less support. It means that lot of local authorities will just say to you, no, your child hasn't got special educational needs. They've got health needs. Even though EHCP means educational and healthcare plan, the H is health. They still say that and that's what happened to me. I had to go to court to say, look at the medical evidence. This impacts him educationally. So my son had Lyme disease, but it was initially chronic fatigue ME, which is very... There's a lot of misconceptions around that, a lot of judgements. we did have, you know, not we weren't, I wasn't ever accused of fabricated induced illness, but there's always, you know, there's always that kind of judgment and educational welfare watching. In the end, I realized that the involvement with educational welfare was just a ploy to try and... take me off the EHCP route because it was dropped as soon as an EHCP was put in place. But it's very common when you have a child with chronic fatigue that you have these kind of problems because there's no blood test that proves they have chronic fatigue. And when my son did have a blood test for Lyme disease, it did make that a bit easier because Borrelia burgdorferi was found in his blood. and he was able to get, we got him treated and he was medicated and things like that. So that became a little bit easier in terms of diagnosis. But this is one of the problems with diagnosis in this country. It's like always looking for evidence and deficits. And I think across the board, there's a lot of judgment on.
29:42Natalie Hay: Is it the child or is it the parents? Which is really hard. And I kind of like allude to that in my book. I really, and as someone that's gone through that judgment myself, even though I was a teacher in the borough for years, you know, I think that it helps to be open about how hard that is. And I want to have more conversations about this. I mean, touch people who are. Diana Hayes: There it is. Natalie Hay: big in this area of this parent-carer blame unfair allegations against them.
30:12Diana Hayes: Yeah, yeah. It doesn't ever stop either, I don't think. Particularly as a mother, because I've seen huge amounts of mothers advocating for diagnosis, advocating for support, attending a parent workshop, and we're often solo parents as well. which is huge in terms of where's the village? You're trying to make the village and there's not many people in the village. And I just think about, there's an ad for calm carry. Have you seen that buzzing thing? Okay, so sleep and like, know, the physical and emotional dysregulation that
30:49Natalie Hay: Yeah. Diana Hayes: that can build and Calm Carry, which has fake things on much cheaper on Amazon. It's more like an electric shock, apparently. We've got Calm Carry coming. This isn't, we're not affiliated or anything. I'm just so curious. I was looking for something that would break that sort of circular thinking at bedtime or just gently. No, you hold it in your hand and it
31:26Natalie Hay: I'm out. Natalie Hay: Is it the app? No. Okay. Diana Hayes: buzzes just at this point. And I have one friend that has quite young primary school children and uses it themselves sometimes, like to just break all this subconscious, like the bzz, bzz. Now, why did I mention that? Something you said made me think of like different ways of thinking parents parent groups, the village. yeah. So in the advert for it, there's this like mock assessment thing, right? It'll be 200 pounds for physio, it'll be 200 pounds for speaking language therapy, it'll be 200 pounds for like all this thing. Or you could just get this calm carry. it's going to sort all your problems out, you're going to emotionally regulate with this thing. But the point is it's never necessarily one thing and one thing can work for a while until it doesn't and being able to chop and change around and there's all sorts of things that you can try out but with it comes a cost. There's always a cost.
33:01Natalie Hay: That's so true and that's why I did the Free School Mill Disability Inclusion Campaign because I wanted to find one piece of the pie that Diana Hayes: Talk to ya. Natalie Hay: to help parent carers in these because I know they have such increased costs all the time. But what you're just saying there about all the different things working with different people, like personalized learning is something I learned about when I was pregnant was my first and a lovely infant school in 2007 and I had an amazing head teacher and you can get some amazing, amazing professionals. And she was always saying, don't worry about the academic, they're in year one, social skills are what really matters. And I was like, brilliant, this is what I've been feeling. This is more important. And she also was really big advocate for personalised learning and looking at each child. And you can do it in a class, but it's not encouraged with all, you know, these ready-made lesson plans and big whiteboards, which we like almost like a mini lecture theatre for a child these days where we just spoon feeding information. But as a parent, we have got the choice to think. We might be offered all these things or suggest make all these suggestions. But what one thing do I think will make a difference? And that's what I do. I just pick out certain things I think will help my students. And I ask them, say like, do you want which spellings do you wish you could always spell? Or which part? What do you want to do today? Do you fancy doing reading or writing? And then they're kind of like. All right, don't worry, we'll do the other one another time. I'm keeping track of all your learning and making sure you get practice everything. What you feel like doing today, I think that's really important to like personalize it to a child which is being controlled and squeezed through a system, you know.
34:45Diana Hayes: And then in terms of, it is worth mentoring the incredible campaigning and policy work that you've done about school meals. We've peppered the conversation. Talk about that journey, if you would. Natalie Hay: Yes, so I mentioned I had to go on benefits, I had to give up work. I was a sole parent for my child and I didn't really realize that I was entitled to free school meals for my children until it was like lockdowns and then in the lockdown they basically sent free school meals vouchers to everyone who was entitled and I thought oh okay so they can send supermarket vouchers so you could get something at home. And then as soon as the lockdown stopped, they took that away. And I said to the school, my son's still locked down. We're still at home. He's still bed bound. And they were like, no, no, it's just a COVID thing. And I said, but he's got disability. We're still locked down. They would not listen. So the person I am, I asked again. And I got them to help me. They let me come into the school and collect food. After a while that became very tedious. I was using my carer break to take care of him. While I cycled into the school, I would meet students there that I taught and they were like, what are you doing here, Miss Hay and I'd be like, coming to collect my son's free school meal. Like, you know, it's not very discreet. And it was impractical. And then they started to say what the school did was they sent boxes, very reluctantly sent food boxes. And you've probably heard about those awful food boxes some people received.
36:26Diana Hayes: No, tell me. Natalie Hay: Yeah, people posting like, we received an awful box. It was really hot day. It was like summer day, similar to this day. And we opened the box and we had like, we had peppers and when we cut them open, they had clouds of moulds inside, literally clouds. I'd never seen any like that. We had carrots that were bendy and they were brown on the end. and we had eggs that were about to go off that day, a sack of salt and like packs of ham. And me and my boys always joke and say, it's like green eggs and ham, you know, that doctor's book. I bought it after, I mean, we always read it and I bought a little hardback of it here because it made, sorry, it was always, always made me laugh.
37:06Diana Hayes: yeah, Dr. Zeus, we got it. Diana Hayes: You can sew it, sew it, grab it, grab it, grab it. Natalie Hay: that we have, you know, sometimes when you have such bad experiences and you're mistreated, you have to find something funny out of it. So we always joke that it was green eggs and ham that were sent to us because the eggs were going off. And I wrote, obviously I wrote to her teacher and said, you know, the food was disgusting, was inedible. And she wrote back, sorry, it wasn't up to your standard, Miss Hay. And I'm like, what, inedible? I said, inedible food. And she said, we're not willing to try anything else. And I couldn't believe it. I copied in my MP. Nothing, couldn't do anything. Couldn't do anything. But you know what? I'm really glad that happened because that instigated my campaigning. That was 2021. I then started a Facebook group with 20 of my friends wondering what the hell I'm bleating on about. It grew to 200. Then I spoke to charities. I got a charity involved to support me. It grew to like... 2000, 3000 parent carers, we found out there was 150,000 children in the whole of England who had free school meals, but because they were at home because of like medical needs or waiting for alternative provision or going into school and couldn't eat free school meals because of anxiety or arthrid, sensory processing difficulties, whatever, who weren't getting free school meals, but yet they were. struggling financially because of the double disadvantage of being a parent carer which creates socio-economic difficulties. I tried very hard to get the DfE to listen and change their policy and start giving free school mill vouchers again and I got a contact charity who managed a meeting with the DfE. I said to them there's no EDI, there's no equality, diversity, inclusion.
39:14Natalie Hay: section in your free school meal policy. They were like, yeah, I didn't think it was big problem. I said to the charity, what are going to do? They're not listening. They were like, I don't know. We have to try and exhaust all our avenues. And I said, no, there's people I know who are struggling. So I'm going to take it to the human rights lawyers. So Steve Broach. and Alex Rook, who quite famous human rights lawyer in education, they helped me take it to court and we won. And the local authority decided, sorry, the whole government, the secretary of state agreed to update the policy to include equality and diversity inclusion. and the policy went from three pages to 19 with a whole page on a YOTUS and unlike case studies and then the second meeting I had with the GFE was so different and they were listening and asking what do think needs to be in the policy and I was like case studies so that schools and local authorities can pick it up and see straight away child on the autistic spectrum can't has a different sensory diet needs a voucher so they can bring in a pat lunch. and it changed so many lives and so many people wrote onto the group and said, I finally got vouchers, I finally got vouchers, I finally got an early lunchtime for my child, I finally got just loads of different things that different reasonable adjustments according to the Equality Act. And I have a whole chapter on reasonable adjustments in my book. And I learned about reasonable adjustments at UCL when I studying specific learning difficulties. I've utilized reasonable adjustments through so many of the students I teach, through the campaign that successful. It's reasonable adjustments in the Equality Act. If there's one thing you need to get your head around as a parent carer, it is reasonable adjustments. It's a legal term. And look at the Equality Act. It's the most important act that will support and protect your child. Whatever happens, whatever happens with this situation and this scary stuff on all the Save Our Children's Rights.
41:19Natalie Hay: you know, amazing campaigns that are happening. This is always good to remember we have that Equality Act to protect our children. Diana Hayes: And we'll put links to that in the show notes and we'll do a nice little summary download, I think, because definitely for me, I think I'd be overwhelmed if I looked at an act. I need those key points and key signposting. And I think that's the point with now as a parent with AI, it's been so helpful for me to read and process stuff. Natalie Hay: Yeah.
41:49Natalie Hay: Yeah, I know what you mean. Natalie Hay: Yes. Diana Hayes: because I find the forms that I'm sent with the details as much as they try to do the best they can. It's really, particularly if you're a neurodivergent parent, making sense of it, seeing what and how you can engage the school with what you can then, like just in this, if I think back to this recent communications report, one of the key things that the AI pulled out was this, that had been in the report was this is not just a bunch of sessions and then gone. It's how do you work collaboratively with the school to sustain those changes? And that was the help of AI pulling that out for me when I found the report like, okay, like where do I go with this? So for me as a neurodivergent parent,
42:42Natalie Hay: Yes. Diana Hayes: It's helped me find my voice to work collaboratively with schools, well school, the primary was amazing, but it's different that, know, through adolescence they're growing and changing and they're finding their own voice. They're learning much more what they need, but it's different kind of support when they're younger. And something that you have said that I think it's also really important to bring out.
43:20Natalie Hay: Yeah. Diana Hayes: all of that policy change and campaigning work. How did you support yourself financially? Do you see what I mean? There's nothing in it for you that benefits. So how do we, as a collective parental community, educators, like they're not aware that there needs to be different kinds of reforms. Local authorities, parent groups campaigning, you know, we've, met, you've just mentioned one just now and people are, are aware that how do you live? Now, you did this campaigning for free school meals because you couldn't afford to buy the school, like time, time and money are massive in every human being's life. Those two resources. Yeah, sorry.
44:21Natalie Hay: Well, for me, For me, sorry, basically, I didn't start campaigning until my son was getting better. That's one of the reasons I did it. So my son was getting better. I didn't need free school meals anymore. and I could, I thought, great, I can go back to work. I can leave this all behind. And I just thought in my head, I just imagined all these parents at home crying on their emails going at this and being upset and how where I used to be. And I just couldn't get that image out of my head and I thought I can do something. So it's too much on a lot of parents to do the campaign themselves. I do have a chapter on campaigning for those that do feel they can do it. But I think it's not fair to expect us to. And particularly parents from free school meals that live in certain part of the country that I had on my group, they were really struggling. Some of them had like three neurodivided children and some of them were caring for their husbands and they're on universal credit. But at the same time, I did start campaigning. Like I was still I still had like care of debt and I was still recovering from parent care trauma when I started campaigning. It wasn't easy for me. I live in a very small flat, know, two bedroom flat with my two kids. And the thing is, I was empowered by campaigning. And I did my whole campaign from home, the entire thing, the meetings with the Diffie, the meetings with the charities, the meetings with the lawyers. I never met the lawyers. We're all done from home. And I was online and I was like in my bath and the evening and it, and I've.
46:01Natalie Hay: doing my Facebook group and chatting to other people. And it helped me because my type of caring I was doing was very physical because I had to carry my son and it helped me to keep active mentally. So everyone's different and there are people that it helps them to be an activist. So, and I actually felt quite patronised by some of the charities. They would say things to me like, or you need to rest and I'd like, no, I need to do something about this. So again, everyone's different. comes that thing of don't assume every parent care is in the same situation. And they would say, oh, you're tirelessly campaigning. And they would like, sometimes the media would victimize me, which I hated. It would swing from one minute they victimized me, oh poor little you who's on preschool meals, and the next minute it's you're a militant parent because you're always fighting for things. Like no, hang on a second. I don't feel like either of those people. I feel like empowered. I feel like I'm making a difference. I want to change things. And I got a change maker award from NASA in 2004, highly commended. And that made me so happy to be recognized as a change maker rather than this kind of weird stigma from being a solo parent on Free School Meals and this kind of judgmental that parent as well. yeah, think some, but then I don't equally, if you don't feel able to campaign, that's fine. You know, if you're overwhelmed and that other people do that for you and money is difficult. It's hard. I'm lucky I own my flat.
47:18Diana Hayes: Hmm. Diana Hayes: Hmm. Natalie Hay: But that's why it's important to fight for things as well. if I hadn't, there were times when I didn't want to go to court, when I wanted to give up, when I didn't want to fight for DLA and EHCPs and stuff. And I'm so glad I kept going because, and also if you're suffering with any backlash and unfair allegations. generally you feel, because you've had some nasty people at schools and local authorities, you start to think the whole system's against you. And what I can tell you is when you get to the high levels in the courts, it's not like that. They look at the evidence. So I've been to court five times now, okay? Disability living allowance, EHCP three times, and the whole, I didn't actually go to court, was, that, and for the whole government. And when you get the top people looking, they look at the evidence.
48:10Diana Hayes: Hmm. Natalie Hay: that you've got in front of you. It's none of this, you said that, he said that, I think this, you think that. It's none of this opinionated, I've got a really awful teacher or really awful this person or whatever. It's looking at the laws, it's much fairer, it's more compassionate in my opinion, it's more empathetic and you feel more empowered. So.
48:51Diana Hayes: And your book has how to gather evidence. I'm sure I saw that. It's how to gather the evidence. Honestly, if you are thinking about it, get it. Even if you're a bit of a seasoned parent, kids in primary, they don't stop. As they grow, their needs change and it's just constant. Even into young adulthood, you're advocating for your neurodivergent child. Natalie Hay: Yes. Yep. Yeah.
49:21Diana Hayes: because their development is just a little bit delayed all the way through. And that's a whole other conversation, supporting your young adult child for their own independence and what that support looks like, how you empower them to build a life that they want as well. But that's almost a whole separate thing. the foundations of like advocating and asking. I watch in my child, like understanding that they don't have to shrink. And even with communication challenges, learning, not having to shrink, but trying to work out what's going to work best. You've talked about it as well in when you're tutoring your students, working out. doing a thing the way that works best for them. Whether it's...
50:25Natalie Hay: Exactly. they might change their mind, which like often happens. Like they say, often they're like, I don't know, no, no, no, I cannot type or, then eventually, and then it's got, okay, especially if it's a PDA or anything. And then just later you can say, but if you, should we just, if you type this, we quicker and then, okay, let me just type it today. And then later they might actually, I think I might type after all. And then it's don't say, I told you so that's not going to help neurodivergent. Diana Hayes: Yeah!
50:53Natalie Hay: Let the child have their own journey as well. like things will change closer to the exams in like year 11. They might suddenly kind of feel a bit more like, actually I want to do this. They got the hormones as well. Remember that. But you need, as a parent, you need to start sowing that seed. And this is one of the things I want parents to know. You can't wait till year 11 to get exam arrangements put in place. October before is the deadline. And then with the JCEQ guidelines, they need to start forming evidence really in year nine and 10. But don't panic if you've got to year 11. You can sometimes get things put in place in, know, last minute things put in place in February, but you can't leave it until a few weeks before, definitely not. And you need to start, don't rely on the school to do it because they're overwhelmed and your child's doing okay. They may not do that. And I think what you were saying about AI as well, Diana, it's really interesting as a parent care and supporting you because one of the things I think is really good, which I wish I'd had, because it wasn't chat to people and things like that, went around when I was at the early stages, is just offloading all the crap you go through. onto AI and not into your emails. And that's something I talk about in my book as well, that it's not going to help you if you send a long rant to a school or local authority, because what they're going to do is it's going to delete it, or they're going to delay replying because they can't, they overwhelm themselves with it. And they might be neurodivergent and big percentage of teachers are. then it's not going to help you. need to... So I tried to refer myself to social services and they wouldn't. They said, no, no, you're a really good parent, there's nothing we can do. I said, but I need support. Really early stages and this amazing family support worker said, you need to put on your professional hat, stop crying in the meetings and you just need to pretend it's one of your students, your child, which I know is really tough and tough, love and hard, but it was good advice. And she said, you just need to go in like this is what my child needs.
53:04Natalie Hay: This is what should happen. So I would almost write from a position of my child needs this and this. This is why. And I would, and I'd always write it, my name, parent, carer as well. And put that status. I'm a parent carer and I hate it when they call you mom and just kind of make you this kind of like, I don't know, family person that doesn't know anything. I think it's up to you to not flood them with your emotions. It's okay, obviously, to get upset now and then, but you need to think about the amount of emails coming through and be a bit careful and strategic. And I've seen lawyers now and how they deal with local authorities in schools and they don't get angry, obviously, but they're consistent and they follow up. So you send an email, don't have a phone call. Even if you have a phone call, you send an email afterwards and you ask them to please reply by the end of the week or two weeks, whatever. You make a note in your diary and then you follow up and you just follow up nice and politely, please can you refer back to my email? Please can you reply to my email data? And you have to be quite clear like that, which again is hard if you're neurodivergent because of organizing it.
54:23Diana Hayes: Mm-hmm. Natalie Hay: But if you just send angry, why haven't you gone back to me? I'm going through this. My child's having this meltdown. They won't be able to support you with all of that. And it's just no point. It'll go against you. I think that's something that people don't say. I feel bad saying it because I'm not criticizing anyone for having those feelings. I had those feelings. Write it in your journal. Speak to your friends about it. Diana Hayes: What?
54:52Natalie Hay: is not going to help you if you send it to the local authorities. Diana Hayes: or speaking to your AI, because what I found in speaking to the AI when you have those emails and frustrations is the AI will literally break down and make sense of all this pattern, this and and then this and then this and that, that it's language. It looks at your language, picks the pattern and then brings up the key things. And then it can help you. Natalie Hay: Yes. Yes!
55:24Diana Hayes: write that email and I'll just look, make it shorter. Make it shorter. Natalie Hay: Yes. Exactly, make it shorter. But you do have to be careful with AI in terms of they are they do have misconceptions in terms of support. I've used I so I was encouraged to use AI at UCL when I was studying. Diana Hayes: Yes. Natalie Hay: a year ago, specific learning difficulties. they, never, I was a bit scared, oh, I shouldn't be using AI. I'm like, no, use it to help with research and editing and things like that. But I tested it to see about dyslexia, what it thought, and it would make mistakes, misconceptions, myths. So I argue with it and say, no, that's not true according to research. So just be a little bit careful in terms of... using it for educational advice, but I think it's really good as a like to help you clarify and summarize. It's amazing for that. Yeah.
56:21Diana Hayes: what's going on in your head. But equally on that, the settings and what you're feeding in terms of AI training. So for me, decided within the AI, I use quite a lot of different types. But for my processing, I decided to leave the things switched on to learn from me because I felt I'm a woman and I'm a neurodivergent woman. and AI needs to learn how I think and what I think. It has to learn. And some of the things that I tell it off with, do not use the word quietly in anything you give to me. Humans are not quiet. And the second thing that I say is, do not use the word chaotic with me. We are rapid pattern thinking.
56:57Natalie Hay: Nice. Diana Hayes: brilliant minded human beings. And then you talked, you mentioned about like not making you, poor mom, why didn't you take a rest? I feel it's the same thing with, you know, with ADHD. I'm a bit chaotic and a bit overwhelmed. Actually, your brain knows how to pick. You can patent spot rapidly across things and it's, and people can't necessarily keep up with that belongs to that belongs to that, even in our conversations, I'm sure even on these episodes or like your mind goes blank, but it's to do with pattern recognition. And with AI drawing that out and helping you see that and creating that has been, it's been incredible, incredibly transformational. And also, you know, there's a lot of talk about ADHD, but there are plenty of autistic mothers. that don't know how to advocate for themselves or their children. And there's huge challenges around that, huge, absolutely huge. And to be doing the right thing for you or your child, or the sense of injustice can really motivate you. But really I've witnessed mature autistic woman, doing a screening, a pre-screening questionnaire. and answering it how they think is the right way to answer it, literally masking in a screening questionnaire. So, and then needing the sort of the coaching and support to maybe like, well, what do you really feel? Not having that permission. So if as a parent, you're advocating for a neurodivergent child, you may well also be neurodivergent without a diagnosis.
59:19Diana Hayes: maybe even without an awareness, a lot of people when they're advocating for their children, recognise it in themselves and what they want to do with it is so different. And like you say, it's so individual, but that means that, you know, this expectation of knowing what your child needs and knowing how to ask for it with your own... challenges around that. I think sort of like what you said about like campaigning, that really helped you. But then not feeling obligated to campaign is also, so it's like, do what you need to do as a parent, you support yourself to advocate for your child. And it's so individual and you might change.
1:00:04Natalie Hay: Yes. Diana Hayes: You might want to advocate for, I don't, I can't think of something right now, but there might be something that really checks your boxes that makes you go, no, this isn't okay. And you've got the energy and the willpower to do that. But equally you may be, this is a battle that I can't fight as well.
1:00:39Natalie Hay: Yeah. And there were days and weeks I couldn't do any campaigning and the campaign was still there. It was still just I came back to when I could. You know, with the charity that works in an office each day, they have to work at things. When you're a campaigner, a grassroots independent activist, you don't have to work like that. Diana Hayes: Yes. Natalie Hay: If you're neurodivergent, you can work with your own pace. So I wouldn't be put off. It's about being with the right people and just being strategic and taking time. But what you were saying about language, I think it's so important. I studied semiotics in my first degree at the London College of Communication and the power of language. And that's why I always encourage the parent carers on my group online. Diana Hayes: Yeah.
1:01:21Natalie Hay: 5000 parent carers, Parent Carers UK, I encourage them to call themselves a parent carer. It's gender neutral. It's showing you're a carer. You might be on carer's allowance. You need extra help and support because I think people need to be reminded, especially certain people, local authority, that we have this extra responsibility. And then with the term ADHD, I prefer ADHD, but it's less common. because that means condition rather than disorder. And one parent said to me once a while ago now, a few years ago, he said, my son isn't disordered. Does that seem like a disordered child to you? Because he knew I would say, I'd been teaching his sister and I was now teaching his son. And I always said to him, no, I don't think so. But that's, and I never use that word. never use, I always abbreviate it because I hate calling it disorder because some of my most entrepreneurial, successful, intelligent, you know, engaging friends at ADHD and have done really well out of school, but in school they were in detention on report, suspended, bored. And I said, your son's going to do really well. He's bright, he's sparky. And I said, but this diagnosis is going to open doors for him because what was happening to him in his school was that he was being labeled that naughty child, that difficult child. The parents were feeling so much pressure. I said, I'm not qualified to say because I wasn't an education psychologist. not. I thought I can see. you know, signs, it's possibility of ADHD or neurodiversion brain. And, you know, he was being, he was being shut in a room when he was difficult. And then he was like, messing things up and breaking things. And I'm like, well, he still feels like a caged animal. And I said, when I, when I have a child like that, do the opposite, I take them to the field and I tell them to run. And then they run, run, run.
1:03:14Diana Hayes: Yeah. Yeah. Natalie Hay: I say, come back to me right now, tell me what happened. So they get that somatic body stuff out, not close them in a room and tell them. Diana Hayes: Yeah. Massive. So tell me what's ADC stand for? HC.
1:03:42Natalie Hay: ADHD. it's yeah, so it's still, hang on a second, let me just, let me just find this in my book, because I wrote, I don't want to get this wrong. So basically, it's attention deficit hyperactivity. So it's still deficit condition. So it's exactly the same as it normally would be attention deficit hyperactivity, but disorder is just the D at the end is replaced with condition. So it's about condition and condition I think is a bit more empowering because at UCL they believe in the social mode of disability which is where you, the social condition, social adapting, social condition around the person in neurofirm way rather than talking in deficit based.
1:04:13Diana Hayes: Mmm. Natalie Hay: language all the time. Deficit based can be helpful, knowing that you have a deficit and be able to organise your thoughts or deficit in phonology so you find phonics difficult is helpful because then you know where to plug the gaps. Like I do think it's fine to talk about strengths and weaknesses because we all have them. Let's be vulnerable. Let's be real. But if you're calling the whole thing a disorder when you like you just so beautifully and eloquently explained it could just be that you you've got different patterns and and ideas you know that's not disordered that's just different differently wired that's yeah kind of more of an entrepreneurial creative and it's also lateral thinking i've an amazing book by edward de bono because you were right i'm right and you are wrong And it's all about logical thinking and the problems with that and how lateral thinking, some people have more lateral thinking where they connect things up. And I find a lot of ADHD and dyslexic people do. And that's different way and it will solve different problems. And let's appreciate both our, you know, our logical thinkers and our lateral thinkers. And it's not competition. Let's just appreciate everyone's differences, you know.
1:05:53Diana Hayes: Yeah, we did an episode on cybersecurity and the profile of person for that. I don't think we actually use the word autistic in the whole episode. I was reflecting on that the other day, but the traits with right down to really minutiae nuances with coding and all sorts, hugely powerful, whereas ADHD, is much bigger and disparate thinking. it's the two very, so right down to such minutiae, and where does that go? And where does that go? And where does that go? It's brilliant for research, absolutely brilliant for research, such a strong skill. And I think that it is about, we took it about,
1:06:35Natalie Hay: Yep. Yep. Diana Hayes: embracing differences and what you're saying about, I know that sounds really cliche and kind of obvious, but not expecting. talk about it with my clients about there's such, you've got such expansive thinking, whether you're autistic or ADHD, it's such incredible ways of thinking that people want to say, well, that was overwhelming for you, wasn't it? Or that was too detailed for you or whatever. and try to get you to behave in certain ways that is, that it just harms that way of thinking. I talk about it as like putting a marshmallow through the eye of the needle. Like it's, it's trying to shrink different ways of thinking to fit things that they don't really have to fit in and actually will probably cause more harm in the long run. You know, like to that point about masking for so long. not even being able to look at a screening questionnaire without what's the right and wrong way to approach this? What do I have to do correctly so I'm not getting it wrong? And I remember one clinician saying to me, back to language and attention deficit disorder, recognizing traits in themselves through their child and what was going on for their child and saying, There is just no possibility, this is in the clinical profession, of even considering a screening, not even attention deficit disorder. There is just no way professionally I could even consider it. And that's within the clinical community. And that's huge. That's absolutely huge, I think. The medical profession there to support. but I think it's very different, particularly if you're top of your game performing brilliantly because of this neurodivergent mind.
1:08:55Natalie Hay: I know you mean it. And I feel really strongly about people who are performing well or okay, not getting support. And that upsets me because like have a lot of parents that come to me and say that they're doing okay, but I know they could probably do better. They almost feel guilty for saying it to me because they think, you know, well, I know that people need more support. And I'm like, no, because we need to make sure that your child releases their potential, you know? And I get, if I... I want my first sessions with my new students. I always think if they're articulate, they've got loads of ideas and they can talk on a diverse range of subjects, I know I will help them. They're doing badly in English. I'm like, no, they're going to be writing. They just need support in composing, getting those ideas onto paper. If they aren't able to discuss things, then it's different. It's probably developmental. language problems there too. It could be more complex or sometimes it's shyness and it comes out later. But you know, I do feel sad that we've got some amazing people with lot of ability and a lot of potential that aren't able to, for whatever reason, self-confidence, self-esteem, not the right sports in place for so long. that they're not or not understanding the expectations, switching off in class, maybe much, like you say about masking, spending so much time masking and making sure they fit in, that they're not really academically switched on. There's just so many different reasons and there's not one, there's not one solution, but we can make the classroom more neuro-friendly for everyone because
1:10:37Diana Hayes: for everyone. Natalie Hay: Yeah, often, often lots of my students they say when I was teaching, it often be an autistic child to put their hand up and say something that every single child was thinking, but no one else would say it like, can we open the door? It's really hot in here. And then we'd open the door. And then And then, especially like younger years, year one, where they masked less. And then everyone was like, and everyone was concentrating again. You know, it's little things like that. think a lot of neurodivergent people are activists and speak up and haven't got the filter sometimes. And it's just a good thing. I don't think that needs to be muffled. I think it would be lovely if you got to a place where schools, if the child wants to not, are not labeling. if the child wants to say, I'm like this, and that's why I do this and like understanding sometimes that person calls out a bit. And we don't always respond to them. But we sometimes allow they do call out and we just sometimes sometimes we let someone that's quietly putting their hand up speak, but a little bit more tolerant understanding compassion. And I think there's there's a lack of compassion between schools and parents. They're kind of on different sides sometimes and there needs to be a bridge. And I have a whole chapter on the parent care load, moral load of being a mother. And I also have one on schools and teachers purposefully, where I want teachers to be more empathetic to parents and parents to be more empathetic to teachers and like work together as allies. I don't know if it's a political system or the broken system, the lack of funding, but something has caused a rupture between these two groups. And my early teaching career was all about homeschool partnership. And it made such a big difference to children's outcomes when we worked together, instead of judging each other and criticizing each other and complaining and, you know.
1:12:22Diana Hayes: Hmm. Diana Hayes: I Diana Hayes: Yeah, yeah, it just makes people don't go into teaching intensely disliking children. Natalie Hay: No, but there are some teachers who are on a controlling power trip. There are some who are really caring to the point of being co-dependent sometimes and then they end up flat out and leaving the profession. And I think you have to be careful who you trust. I think it's important to say as well and like not think because you've had one bad experience with one bad teacher that they're all like that. Diana Hayes: You know? Diana Hayes: Mmm.
1:13:06Natalie Hay: or any professional, like don't be afraid to look for other people. If you have a bad EHC coordinator or a bad anyone, look for other people out there or look on groups and ask, is there a teacher out here? And then as soon as you meet someone else, an amazing occupational therapist or an amazing teaching assistant who gets your child, you the relief you feel. is immense, you know, so think it's about finding the right people, finding your advocates, and then those people sometimes will start fighting your corner behind closed doors in schools as well. If you find your allies, if you shut up and go, no, they're all awful, no, which is easy to do, but as a teacher myself who's been in school, I know that there will be those jaded teachers who've been doing it a long time and just...
1:13:44Diana Hayes: Mm. Natalie Hay: or like don't do it for maybe the right reasons sometimes and then they'll be these amazing caring teachers but they both have to work together in a school with a system with lot of pressure on them they're being watched by off-stead they're being like it's it's a really difficult job don't do it for the money
1:14:19Diana Hayes: this has been brilliant, this conversation. And I know that we're going to go when we see each other for the launch of Even the Dog is ADHD, which will have happened by the time this goes out for the media center. just with closing, I mean, I feel like I just want to close out by saying, get the book. If you need help, get the book. Natalie Hay: Thank Natalie Hay: No. Diana Hayes: Natalie's information will be around this episode. You can click on links really easily on her page. And I don't know what would be your final thing, sort of closing comment to somebody who's listened all the way through to you. You've done many things as well. Your parent, carer, your government policy changemaker. You're running tutoring, you're a published author, you do many, many things. And I think, and I hope also that even the Dog Has ADHD Media Center really shows there are so many different ways that you can find support. There's not just one way of doing something. So I wonder if you could speak to that.
1:15:38Natalie Hay: I would say two things, okay, will make me feel a little bit emotional because I know how hard it is as parent carer and it is take care of yourself as a parent carer because at the moment no one's really thinking about parent carers and like Above all, take care of yourself because it's a marathon. Especially in the early stages supporting your child. And don't be afraid if you can't do something one day and you can't be the best parent, fine. If you need to rest and you can't fill out that form, fine. And that's the main thing, first of all, like really take care of yourself as a parent care. Recognise you're doing the parenting job and a caring job. And the second thing is if you feel overwhelmed and like too many bridges to cross, too many mountains to climb, just know that with the right support in place, things can rapidly change in six months because I've seen it. I've put it, I've done it. I've helped students in my classroom and through my tutoring and hopefully for this book now too, for people that can't afford tutoring where they can read the book instead or they can join the groups that I run and webinars. that you can change a lot in six months with just reasonable adjustments put in place, a few strategies. It could literally be three things put in place. And in tutoring just over six months, your child can make a massive amount of progress and don't think, no, because I can't ever get that because I haven't got diagnosis or I can't ever get that because this school, do not lose hope. Find a way and... You know, won't regret it, but look after yourself first in doing that. Because in the end, if you can't, if you haven't got your own mental health, you know, that's more important than anything. Forget what the house looks like or where, you know, all the status things, all the pressure we have on us. Just look after yourself and look after your child, listen to your child and show them that you love them.
1:17:23Diana Hayes: Yeah. Natalie Hay: that whatever they're getting from school and recognise that if they're negative things at school from students and teachers and underlying negative energy that they will pick up on, that they're difficult, they don't like the dynamic, that that's not, that they are still worthy and valuable and that they will do something special one day. This is just a phase they're going through. Just, you know, hold on to those two things, you and your child.
1:18:09Diana Hayes: Thank you so much, Natalie. Really, thank you so much. So we're going to close out all these amazing resources. We'll be around this episode. I know I keep saying it, but look, look, look. And I'll just close out with apples. Don't fall far from trees. And there's never just one.
